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C-4 motors are finished!!

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C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/28/12 9:14amMessage 1 of 13
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Original SBC's including LT-1, LT-4 & LT-5 are dead! And, if you shrink wrapped your C-4 thinking it will go the way of black on black, 427-435 HP mid years at B-J's, your dreaming. Never going to happen with the production numbers of C-4's. You better buy a stock pile of parts and they will soon get cheap (for awhile) as everybody unloads their stock.

In the last year, I've been to a number of the bigger rod shows and recently, the National Muscle Car Association drags. Thee motor of choice is clearly the LS series in different versions. GM traveling road show has shelved it's 502 & 572 there in favor of a 454 LS Crate motor. Even the blown ZR-1 motor is available in a crate if your pockets are deep. LS is where all the development is going and it's time to pay attention to guys working out the bugs to stuff it into C-4's.

With the likes of NHRA pro stock and NASCAR switching to fuel injection, I think the same will be said of any carburated combination.

You can live in denial until either until you consistently get your ass whipped or you need major engine work only to find the parts are hard to get. Frankly LS motors real strength is they hang onto the torque a little higher than previous incarnations and that's where the bragging rites are coming from for big HP numbers. You have to remember they are running titanium rods and intake valves to go another 1000 RPM and most guys won't twist them there so a properly prepared set of older heads will even the playing field. I know, there are millions of Gen 1,2,3 motors out there but the same could be said of flat heads once and although you can also find them, only hard core nostalgia guys will.

Then talk to the next generation of car guys. I was in the grocery store and the kid on the cash noticed my corvette emblem so he asked about mine. Seemed enthusiastic, so I asked when are you getting one? Oh no, wants a Subaru something or other "X"!! That's even bigger trouble for the sport and pretty clear when you look at the average age of people in clubs and at the shows. I'll leave the rest of that for someone else to rant.

What do you think, c'mon?

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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/28/12 12:46pmMessage 2 of 13
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West Chester, PA - USA
Joined: 3/20/2009
Posts: 705
Vette(s): 1995 Torch Red Coupe
I agree to some extent.  The number of LSx motors available from speciality junkyards is growing and a swap into a C4 is starting to pick up steam as a mod.  Pricing is reasonable compared to punching out your LTx, machine shop work, cam, labor etc.   Problem, IMO, is that the C4 market, even with a LSx transplant, is still pretty weak, with little sign of improving any time soon.  I've thought about it though, could certainly make my car a sleeper.  Beer
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/29/12 11:58amMessage 3 of 13
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Guthrie, OK - USA
Joined: 2/7/2011
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Vette(s): 1984 L83/MD8 coupe
I agree as well....but my '84 is a milestone; albeit not a popular one, but I love it and the CFI 350 is a challenge to care for. 
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/30/12 9:45amMessage 4 of 13
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Rock Hill, SC - USA
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Vette(s): '75 coupe, '78 yellow
 I think you know too little about the LT5. It is the future of Chevy's SBC. They are going to have to go to the DOHC eventually. Look at the Mustangs, they are making big HP numbers and have a large lead on Chevy on the development side of this. The direct cylinder fuel injector is next, but Chevy is going to have to leave the push rod and join the rest of the world and us 6.000 plus ZR-1's.  Who knows what the C7 power plant is going to be?
 But I had rather have a vette with a dual points and carb than all that junk any day, because I can alway make them work and get me home. Instead of being stuck on the side of a road with a computer than says I can't go any further. Did I buy my Vette for the Gas mileage? No.
  Hear that... It's the sound of those C5 and C6 with their LSx deprecating. Our C4s are where they are price wise. When the C7 comes out the C5/6s are going to drop even faster. So our LT have a world of potential that is out there. If you view that they are better than you, then they are.
"I Love the Infantryman he is the underdog. They are the wind, the rain, and the mud boys. They give up all comforts and necessities and in the end they are the ones the war cannot be won with out!" Ernest Pyle
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/30/12 4:32pmMessage 5 of 13
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Mike,
You couldn't be more wrong. LT-5's will never come back in any version, they are too complicated and too expensive to buy and to fix for general consumption. There's no doubt the power potential is there to put away LS motors BUT,15 years, ago LT-5's were 5 times the current cost of an LS making the same power. Pretty much accepted that LT-1's killed the LT-5 with only a tick difference in performance at a fraction of the cost. And, all that Ford overhead cam tech can't hold a candle to the cubic inches in the current LS motors with OEM exotic parts that give them the same red line as OHC's. Don't forget NASCAR is running 500 miles with pushrod motors at 9500 RPM too. It's not the OHV that are making Mustangs go, it's all the variations of forced induction.

But that really wasn't my point. I'm saying the proliferation of LS motors is in everything from old street rods and muscle cars to big production models-vettes, camaro's ,caddy's, SUV's now fifteen years after production started, in hugh nubers that have the aftermark's full attention. Crate motors are cost effective and they are dropping the older versions increasingly quickly to a point where it will be impractical or undesirable to overhaul your old boat anchor.

You can stubbornly cling to old school carb tech but computers and fuel injection are a package that has clear advantages despite the fear of black box operation, Don't forget, current hot rods give up a bunch of cubic inches and still run times to shame anything the 60's had to offer, hemi's included. There's no shortage of aftermarket retrofit systems giving the racers the required flexibilty but older hot rodders have failed to embrace the tech "Tuners" have made their mantra. It's the older OEM street computers and programming accessiblity that are lagging although the tools are out there. But once again, those old computers are being abandoned in favour of later model LS controllers.

As for direct injection, I think that comes under the realm of diminishing returns for 4-cycle gas engines. Port injection already provides combustion feed back control so what can direct injection offer for all the added complication - a little better part load combustion efficiency. There's some out there but I don't see it common place until the emmissions force the issue. Either way, the engine platform will be one more step removed from production C-4s.


|UPDATED|3/30/2012 4:32:54 PM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/30/12 7:28pmMessage 6 of 13
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Rock Hill, SC - USA
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Vette(s): '75 coupe, '78 yellow
 I have yet to see an LT or LS anything run 175 mph for 24 hrs. How about a SBC or a BBC? A NASCAR engine? Nope, just a reject LT5 could do it. They do not have the durability that a DOHC engine does.
 I understand the appeal of the crate engine. But the Corvette and Hot Rod world is changing from mechanics to part changers. Stay with your push rods but the C8 or C9 will have a DOHC engine with smaller Cubic Inches or litres, like the Mustang. It will be more fuel efficient with more HP and just as quick. Technology marches on.
 The LT5 has lasted for many years but just in another form: the Northstar. Not bad from a 4.4L when put next to a LS9 6.2L @ 638hp.
 
Supercharged LC3

A 4.4 L (266 cu in) supercharged Northstar was used in the 2006-2009 Cadillac STS-V and Cadillac XLR-V. The bore was reduced for increased strength and improved head gasket sealing. Variable valve timing is used on both the intake and exhaust sides. The STS-V engine produces 469 hp (350 kW) at 6400 rpm and 439 lb·ft (595 N·m) at 3900 rpm with 9:1 compression and the XLR-V engine produces 443 hp (330 kW) at 6400 rpm and 414 lb·ft (561 N·m) at 3900 rpm.

Year Model Power Torque
2006–2009 Cadillac STS-V 469 hp (350 kW) @ 6400 rpm 439 lb·ft (595 N·m) @ 3900 rpm
2006–2009 Cadillac XLR-V 443 hp (330 kW) @ 6400 rpm 414 lb·ft (561 N·m) @ 3900 rpm
"I Love the Infantryman he is the underdog. They are the wind, the rain, and the mud boys. They give up all comforts and necessities and in the end they are the ones the war cannot be won with out!" Ernest Pyle
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 3/30/12 8:11pmMessage 7 of 13
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396c4 said:
 Pretty much accepted that LT-1's killed the LT-5 with only a tick difference in performance at a fraction of the cost.


 I would like a documented case of this just for the record on a stock vs stock basis. I accept the LT5 cost more,  but the ZR-1 package vs the best LT-1 package. Show me. Even the LT-4 was an improvement but still. What killed the LT5 was the LSx coming in the C5 which borrowed many aspect of the LT5 operating system. The LT5 was a test bed for many of the LS parts.
"I Love the Infantryman he is the underdog. They are the wind, the rain, and the mud boys. They give up all comforts and necessities and in the end they are the ones the war cannot be won with out!" Ernest Pyle
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 4/1/12 7:50amMessage 8 of 13
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Can't believe you're still harping about that old endurance record, hardly worth the price of the decal any more. When was the last time a legit attempt was made? A publicity stunt by GM with unlimited budget to run a test exercise. How many wins for an LT-5 at 12 or 24 hour races? SBC won 50 years ago but that just confirms it's time to move on. Where's your motor in the flying mile?

I've got a fully prepped LT-4 motor that will make you think your stocker left in the wrong gear. Even the hot cam and LT-4 conversion will make HP to match LT-5 bragging rights. Sure, you can go to Lingenfelter and do more but dollar for dollar, a blown LT-1 will make you wonder why you bothered. (BTW,  I know what that's like because there are some 1000 HP dyno confirmed cars around here, all blown of course. )


When's the last time you went to the red line? I don't blame you, double the valves and 16 ft of timing chain is more than a recipe for double the (very expensive) trouble. Mine on the other hand would not be inexpensive if hurt, but not like yours. At that point, I'd have to put my money where my mouth is and make the jump to an LSX.

Go look at http://www.nmcadigital.com/2012_event_schedule/lsx-challenge-series/ if you really want to see where things are going.


|UPDATED|4/1/2012 7:50:40 AM (AZT)|/UPDATED|
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 4/1/12 5:30pmMessage 9 of 13
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Rock Hill, SC - USA
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Vette(s): '75 coupe, '78 yellow
I will be looking forward to seeing you at the C4 Gathering at BG. The boys from Chicago and the WAZOO group will be interested in your theories. They have been in the C4 game since the beginning and know a lot more than me. Come and enjoy the fellowship, The Sausages are great as are the Bow Tie burgers from Jim Van Dorn himself. I'll buy you a beer. We will be going to Beech Bend drag way and then I can show you what an engine sounds like when it stays at the 7200 rpm rev limiter and maybe we could do a friendly chicken contest on who will stay there the longest. Come on down enjoy the stories about the Corvette Challenge Series. All Corvettes are great to us. Drive'em like they were meant to be.
 Below is a ZR-1 at the Texas mile. Not bad for 20 yr old tech. Thumbs Up 
 
"I Love the Infantryman he is the underdog. They are the wind, the rain, and the mud boys. They give up all comforts and necessities and in the end they are the ones the war cannot be won with out!" Ernest Pyle
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Re: C-4 motors are finished!!

Posted: 4/1/12 9:12pmMessage 10 of 13
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MikeGolf93 said:

...... What killed the LT5 was the LSx......

I thought LT5 was killed after 95 because of mandated OBD II for 96? Of course there weren't many sold after the first two years.  And the cost.  And perhaps packaging in the C5. LT5 engine production ended in Nov 1993. I suspect there's more to it than LS engines. Like not enough buyers to make it worthwhile.

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